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The best peace plan I've heard yet. Seriously.
From http://arutzsheva.com/news.php3?id=42808
The Elon Peace Plan: Both Sides of the Jordan
Tourism Minister Benny Elon has proposed a new outline for peace in the Middle East, entitled: "In the Wake of the War in Iraq - A Historic Opportunity for a Regional Solution to the Israeli-Palestinian Conflict."
Elon, successor to the assassinated Rehavam Ze'evi as head of the Moledet Party in the National Union, conceived the plan as an alternative to the Road Map currently under consideration. He says that the Road Map is merely a "rehashing of the
decades-old goal of trying to seat two peoples on the western side of the Jordan River" - an objective he calls "unworkable" and "dangerous." Giving the Arabs of Yesha a quasi-state will not solve the fundamental problems of borders and refugees,
Elon says, but will instead guarantee the next round of terrorism and warfare.
Elon's plan offers what he calls "the genuine and original two-state solution," proposing that it encompass the full extent of Mandatory Palestine on both sides of the Jordan River. Its six points include the following:
* The Palestinian Authority will be dissolved;
* Israel will put a firm end to Palestinian terrorism by expelling terrorists, collecting weapons, and dismantling terror-hotbed refugee camps;
* The international community will recognize the Hashemite Kingdom as the sole representative of the Palestinians, and will help it economically as it absorbs a limited number of refugees;
* Israel will become sovereign over Judea, Samaria and Gaza, and the Arabs living there will be Jordanian citizens living under a form of autonomy to-be-determined;
* The exchange of Jewish and Arab populations begun in 1948 will be completed, and the international community will help rehabilitate the refugees in their new countries;
* Israel and Jordan-Palestine will declare the conflict ended and will work together as neighbors.
Though political opponents say that Elon is "ignoring the reality of the Palestinian Authority," the Elon Plan states that just as the "evil regimes of the Taliban and Saddam Hussein were destroyed," the same must befall the PA, "one of the most
dangerous regimes." In addition to its history as a sponsor of terrorism and incitement, and the fact that it is a link in the chain of world-wide terror, the very existence of the PA as a non-solution perpetuates the conflict, the Elon Plan
posits.
As reported by Arutz-7 on Tuesday, Minister Elon plans to present the program to political leaders and leading thinkers in the U.S. and abroad in the coming days. He says that it addresses the needs of the Arab refugees from 1948 who have been
holed up in refugee camps merely in order to serve the interests of the Arab countries at war with Israel, as well as those of Israel and Jordan.
Among the plan's advantages Elon lists simplicity, sustainability, morality, deterrence, and justice. "We expect the plan to receive a wide and fair hearing in the Congress and among wide sectors of the Jewish and Christian population in the
United States," a top Elon aide told Arutz-7's Yosef Zalmanson.
__________________
"When there's a synagogue in Mecca, there can be a mosque in Jerusalem." - Jared Miller
"For Zion's sake will I not hold my peace, and for Jerusalem's sake I will not rest..." Isaiah 62:1
Makes perfect sense. Certainly gets my vote.
Yep, great plan.
Now lets all sit back and relax while andak levels charges of bigotry and hatred against all and sundry.
__________________
Hatikvah
I'm all for it.
quote:
Originally posted by Leon Uris
Yep, great plan.
Now lets all sit back and relax while andak levels charges of bigotry and hatred against all and sundry.
__________________
If the Arabs put down their weapons, there would be no war.
If the Jews put down their weapons, there would be no Israel.
"Yet there will be heard the voice of joy, the voice of groom and bride in the cities of Judah and in the streets of Jerusalem" (Jeremiah "Od Yishamah", 6th century BC)
The only problem in this plan I see is one of the most grave and hardly spoken of problems...Arabs with Israeli citizenship. They, purposely it seems, have an extremely high birthrate and eventually will become the majority in Israel if this cancer is not removed before it kills the whole body.
__________________
"When there's a synagogue in Mecca, there can be a mosque in Jerusalem." - Jared Miller
"For Zion's sake will I not hold my peace, and for Jerusalem's sake I will not rest..." Isaiah 62:1
quote:
The only problem in this plan I see is one of the most grave and hardly spoken of problems...Arabs with Israeli citizenship. They, purposely it seems, have an extremely high birthrate and eventually will become the majority in Israel if this cancer is not removed before it kills the whole body.
__________________
I can't listen to that much Wagner. I start getting the urge to conquer Poland.
Woody Allen (1935 - )
As for the plan...
Yes it sounds pretty good. Shame Dubya hasn't picked up on it.
I wonder why?
__________________
I can't listen to that much Wagner. I start getting the urge to conquer Poland.
Woody Allen (1935 - )
IT IS NOT RACIST ... WHEN WILL YOU COME TO YOUR SENSES??? WE JEWS ARE THE WORLD MINORITY AND WE DO HAVE A SMALL LAND AND YES WE ARE EVEN BEGINNING TO BE A MINORITY IN THAT LAND... IF WE ARE NOT THE
MAJORITY IN THAT LAND THEN WE ARE OVER! DOOMED! DO YOU UNDERSTAND THIS?!?!!? I'm sorry for the caps it's just to show my mood... it angers me that you don't get it! ... I DON'T WANT TO HATE ARABS, I DON'T WANT TO BE RACIST, I DON'T WANT APARTHEID
BUT WE CAN'T SAY... Arabs, please go out? pretty please? so we can survive as a Jewish people... SO we have to force them out somehow cause if we don't the Jews are over because in the diaspora there are interracial couples... I live in Canada and
I'm 17 and I'm planning to go to Israel so I can live my life in the country where I was born and taken away from and because I do not want to marry any goia... There are plenty of beautiful and nice women who are not Jewish but I will regret
this... I will take part in making our Jewish people stronger by quanitity and for that I will find a Jewish girlfriend... that's how committed I am...
Secondly , please get this in your head, we never achieved the 100% Judaism in Israel yet we have to achieve this and remain like this for at least 3 decades in order to be able to grow, then we can let some arabs in do you understand what I'm
saying? They multiply like rabbits! Ah forget this! You don't even seem to want to understand you just want Judaism to fail don't you now?!
You don't get it ... I don't get it cause you don't get it ... it's survival... If the arabs want to be Jewish then fine they can stay but the point is the survival of Judaism... in the land of
ZION! OUR LAND! NOT THEIRS! NOT ANYONE ELSES AS GOD SAID!
__________________
The world hates us and so we shall with love give them all our hate...
Before you call something "blantantly racist", you need to know the facts. First of all I have no problems with Arabs - living outside of Israel. I have three ARAB friends(one of Egyptian decent and two of Lebanese decent, not to mention my parent's best friends who are Lebanese as well; all are Muslims), all who see no problem with this view since Arabs and Muslims control over 100 times the land of Israel does. And last time I checked, Mecca didn't allow non-Muslims and Europe didn't allow Jews for hundreds of years. So do me a favor and shut the hell up since you just show what an idiot you are when you post.
__________________
"When there's a synagogue in Mecca, there can be a mosque in Jerusalem." - Jared Miller
"For Zion's sake will I not hold my peace, and for Jerusalem's sake I will not rest..." Isaiah 62:1
quote:
Originally posted by Leon Uris
Yep, great plan.
Now lets all sit back and relax while andak levels charges of bigotry and hatred against all and sundry.
quote:
Originally posted by Isiah 2:4
I am very offended that a supporter of Israel could be so blatantly racist. It is disgusting. This kind of comment fuels all the anti-Israelis who feed on the notion that israel IS a racist state.
What can I say. I must be racist because I love Israel and the fact that it is proud to be the only Jewish country. How do you propose keeping Israel Jewish? Forced conversion? Lol...when are you all
going to learn? People have such think skulls, talking is worthless.
----------
I keep my comments about the femininazis and other liberals like Isiah 2:4 and whoever else was talking trash. Why must you always resort to calling someone a bigot? Refer to my preior post in this forum on why exactly I'm not a not racist.
__________________
"When there's a synagogue in Mecca, there can be a mosque in Jerusalem." - Jared Miller
"For Zion's sake will I not hold my peace, and for Jerusalem's sake I will not rest..." Isaiah 62:1
Isiah,
before calling names, you should have glanced at the map and noticed that today practically whole ME is Judenrein, the only exception being Israel: Middle East Regional
Map
Our enemies dream to destroy our only country, a part of the land of our ancestors, either from the inside or out, by way of open war, terror, mass murder, boycott or demographic explosion. If it takes sacrificing their own children, these
cannibals won't stop.
All we want is live in peace and trade.
__________________
If the Arabs put down their weapons, there would be no war.
If the Jews put down their weapons, there would be no Israel.
"Yet there will be heard the voice of joy, the voice of groom and bride in the cities of Judah and in the streets of Jerusalem" (Jeremiah "Od Yishamah", 6th century BC)
quote:
And last time I checked, Mecca didn't allow non-Muslims and Europe didn't allow Jews for hundreds of years. So do me a favor and shut the hell up since you just show what an idiot you are when you post.
__________________
I can't listen to that much Wagner. I start getting the urge to conquer Poland.
Woody Allen (1935 - )
quote:
Originally posted by Isiah 2:4
...Nobody will destroy Israel if we Jews are united AND we work together...
__________________
"When there's a synagogue in Mecca, there can be a mosque in Jerusalem." - Jared Miller
"For Zion's sake will I not hold my peace, and for Jerusalem's sake I will not rest..." Isaiah 62:1
quote:
Originally posted by Adversary2Arabs
We will never be a united people because there are too many people who hate being Jewish. Only Moshiach will be able to fix this.
__________________
The world hates us and so we shall with love give them all our hate...
I have NO problems with Arab Israelis and Muslim Israelis.
That said, the birthrate quote is in fact correct....it was part of the long term plan to destroy Israel, and has been quoted from PLO sources, etc.
Also, I do have a problem with any Arab Israeli who would work to overthrow the government, or the Jewish Character of Israel.
quote:
Originally posted by MGB8
I have NO problems with Arab Israelis and Muslim Israelis.
That said, the birthrate quote is in fact correct....it was part of the long term plan to destroy Israel, and has been quoted from PLO sources, etc.
Also, I do have a problem with any Arab Israeli who would work to overthrow the government, or the Jewish Character of Israel.
C an I ask you, what good is the Jewish character of a country, if its got 1% Jews? Eventually, if we don't fix it, this wil be the case. Furthermore, Israel being a democratic country, everything about it being Jewish is reversable. I mean look at Tommy Lapid. He won't even enfore ISRAELI LAWS because they are based from religion. If he won't do it because it's based on religion, what will he do with Israel? If Abraham wasn't Jewish, he wouldn't have come to Israel and Jews would be part of the Arab hoards who live in modern day Iraq, which was Mesopotamia.
__________________
"When there's a synagogue in Mecca, there can be a mosque in Jerusalem." - Jared Miller
"For Zion's sake will I not hold my peace, and for Jerusalem's sake I will not rest..." Isaiah 62:1
Right now Arabs are what, 10-15% of the Israeli population. After a Pal.Arab State is created...whether within present Israel or without...I wouldn't be surprised if many went on their own to the new
"Palestine."
Then, after that, its just a matter of Jews also having kids.
1% Jews is anever going to happen. Minority Jews is very very very far off, if it is ever going to happen, which I doubt.
As for the Jewish Character - amend the Constitution to make Israel officially a JEWISH state, which I'm not sure that it is right now, for some reason.
quote:
Originally posted by MGB8
Right now Arabs are what, 10-15% of the Israeli population. After a Pal.Arab State is created...whether within present Israel or without...I wouldn't be surprised if many went on their own to the new "Palestine."
Then, after that, its just a matter of Jews also having kids.
1% Jews is anever going to happen. Minority Jews is very very very far off, if it is ever going to happen, which I doubt.
As for the Jewish Character - amend the Constitution to make Israel officially a JEWISH state, which I'm not sure that it is right now, for some reason.
__________________
"When there's a synagogue in Mecca, there can be a mosque in Jerusalem." - Jared Miller
"For Zion's sake will I not hold my peace, and for Jerusalem's sake I will not rest..." Isaiah 62:1
Re: The best peace plan I've heard yet. Seriously.
works for me. we put an end to palestinian terrorism while at the same time take care of the palestinian problem. we don't do it because we are "the chosen people", but because it's right and just.
jordan is the palestinian state. almost 80% of the people living in jordan are palestinians. now all we need is a leader with balls to implement this plan
the current peace plan will never work
I like the plan but wonder if there is sufficient resolve to implement it or enforce it. Is the Israeli government desperate enough to act in Israel's best interest despite outside pressures?
__________________
"The world is a dangerous place to live, not because of the people who are evil, but because of the people who don't do anything about it." - Albert Einstein
A simple way to tackle the tremendous birth rate of Israeli Arabs... try to bring Israeli Arabs away from the 19th century into the 21st century. Give them a dose of Western culture. Among all Arab countries it is common for there to be at LEAST 4 children among every couple. For those who know history birth rates in Arab lands were very high (and are still high now) so basicaly the high birth rate compensated for the high death rate. If Israel can find a way to try and implant modern western culture among Israeli Arabs then it is possible that they will discontinue with what is happening. An even better idea is to try and make them more supportive and patriotic regarding ISRAEL. At the moment most Arabs (not Druze or others) feel against Israel. This is not impossible... look at Israeli Druze who have constantly accepted and defended Israel from the Arab armys.
__________________
Only two things are infinite, the universe and human stupidity, and I'm not sure about the former.
Albert Einstein
The Druze, who are of Arab decent, have no reason to be kciked out of Israel. People say I'm racist, etc. but they're basically Arabs and I have no problem with them. I don't have a problem because they aren't murdering Jews.
__________________
"When there's a synagogue in Mecca, there can be a mosque in Jerusalem." - Jared Miller
"For Zion's sake will I not hold my peace, and for Jerusalem's sake I will not rest..." Isaiah 62:1
Here's the answer... it's Jewish democracy in Israel... not just a democracy but a JEWISH one... If Iran makes it Islamic then we will make it Jewish ... only difference is we won't oppress and kill
our own people and it will be a democracy! and not a dictatorship or totalitarism... 
__________________
The world hates us and so we shall with love give them all our hate...
quote:
Elon's plan offers what he calls "the genuine and original two-state solution," proposing that it encompass the full extent of Mandatory Palestine on both sides of the Jordan River. Its six points include the following:
* The Palestinian Authority will be dissolved;
* Israel will put a firm end to Palestinian terrorism by expelling terrorists, collecting weapons, and dismantling terror-hotbed refugee camps;
* The international community will recognize the Hashemite Kingdom as the sole representative of the Palestinians, and will help it economically as it absorbs a limited number of refugees;
* Israel will become sovereign over Judea, Samaria and Gaza, and the Arabs living there will be Jordanian citizens living under a form of autonomy to-be-determined;
* The exchange of Jewish and Arab populations begun in 1948 will be completed, and the international community will help rehabilitate the refugees in their new countries;
* Israel and Jordan-Palestine will declare the conflict ended and will work together as neighbors.
quote:
Originally posted by cerulean
The main problem with this plan is that Jordan doesn't want the Palestinians. They only cause trouble in Jordan, and Jordan once killed a rather large number of them in "Black September." Of course, it's scarcely logical that Israel should have to suffer because of this. But realistically, what sort of incentives would Jordan need to go along with wanting to be responsible for several million people many of whom are terrorist-supporters (many of whom currently have Jordanian citizenship, but are still Israel's problem somehow)?
__________________
"The world is a dangerous place to live, not because of the people who are evil, but because of the people who don't do anything about it." - Albert Einstein
The original plan
http://www.therightroadtopeace.com/english.pdf
The full document with maps, etc. is about 500kB.
__________________
If the Arabs put down their weapons, there would be no war.
If the Jews put down their weapons, there would be no Israel.
"Yet there will be heard the voice of joy, the voice of groom and bride in the cities of Judah and in the streets of Jerusalem" (Jeremiah "Od Yishamah", 6th century BC)
quote:
Originally posted by Isiah 2:4
I am very offended that a supporter of Israel could be so blatantly racist. It is disgusting. This kind of comment fuels all the anti-Israelis who feed on the notion that israel IS a racist state.
Israel is an advocate of free peoples, democracy, equal rights and it provides a safe haven for those who need it. ALL of the people in Israel add to its fundamental character of defiance in the face of dictatorships and terrorism. Arabs teach, give medical care, promote justice and are playing active roles in the defence of Israel, both inside and out. Just as much as the Christians and Jews.
You make me sick, that you even refer to any group of humans in this way. Go peddle your vile remarks on a neo-nazi site you horrible human being.
No. It is You that is part of the virus that invests your country of free peoples. White supremacists should be shipped off to Siberia and be subject to tests by evil Russian scientists. Maybe they will prove that whites are not any better than any people on this planet. Ever. If you are a Jew, which i hope you are not, you should know this yourself, of all peoples.
If you are, you should be severely ashamed of yourself and go to your rabbi for direction, if not a shrink.
Re: The best peace plan I've heard yet. Seriously.
quote:
Originally posted by Adversary2Arabs
From http://arutzsheva.com/news.php3?id=42808
The Elon Peace Plan: Both Sides of the Jordan
Tourism Minister Benny Elon has proposed a new outline for peace in the Middle East, entitled: "In the Wake of the War in Iraq - A Historic Opportunity for a Regional Solution to the Israeli-Palestinian Conflict."
Elon, successor to the assassinated Rehavam Ze'evi as head of the Moledet Party in the National Union, conceived the plan as an alternative to the Road Map currently under consideration. He says that the Road Map is merely a "rehashing of the decades-old goal of trying to seat two peoples on the western side of the Jordan River" - an objective he calls "unworkable" and "dangerous." Giving the Arabs of Yesha a quasi-state will not solve the fundamental problems of borders and refugees, Elon says, but will instead guarantee the next round of terrorism and warfare.
Elon's plan offers what he calls "the genuine and original two-state solution," proposing that it encompass the full extent of Mandatory Palestine on both sides of the Jordan River. Its six points include the following:
* The Palestinian Authority will be dissolved;
* Israel will put a firm end to Palestinian terrorism by expelling terrorists, collecting weapons, and dismantling terror-hotbed refugee camps;
* The international community will recognize the Hashemite Kingdom as the sole representative of the Palestinians, and will help it economically as it absorbs a limited number of refugees;
* Israel will become sovereign over Judea, Samaria and Gaza, and the Arabs living there will be Jordanian citizens living under a form of autonomy to-be-determined;
* The exchange of Jewish and Arab populations begun in 1948 will be completed, and the international community will help rehabilitate the refugees in their new countries;
* Israel and Jordan-Palestine will declare the conflict ended and will work together as neighbors.
Though political opponents say that Elon is "ignoring the reality of the Palestinian Authority," the Elon Plan states that just as the "evil regimes of the Taliban and Saddam Hussein were destroyed," the same must befall the PA, "one of the most dangerous regimes." In addition to its history as a sponsor of terrorism and incitement, and the fact that it is a link in the chain of world-wide terror, the very existence of the PA as a non-solution perpetuates the conflict, the Elon Plan posits.
As reported by Arutz-7 on Tuesday, Minister Elon plans to present the program to political leaders and leading thinkers in the U.S. and abroad in the coming days. He says that it addresses the needs of the Arab refugees from 1948 who have been holed up in refugee camps merely in order to serve the interests of the Arab countries at war with Israel, as well as those of Israel and Jordan.
Among the plan's advantages Elon lists simplicity, sustainability, morality, deterrence, and justice. "We expect the plan to receive a wide and fair hearing in the Congress and among wide sectors of the Jewish and Christian population in the United States," a top Elon aide told Arutz-7's Yosef Zalmanson.
__________________
"This country has passed through many hands. It has been conquered incessantly and incessantly abandoned.... Only the Jews have loved the land for itself, have worked it, improved it, made it theirs through their care for it. This was true two
thousand years ago, it is equally true today. Israel is ours in the twentieth century not because we fought wars over it (these were protective actions after the fact of our presence) but because we settled it..."
Ben Gurion, 'Recollections'
Re: Re: The best peace plan I've heard yet. Seriously.
quote:
Originally posted by abu afak
SUPER POST!
Someone tell me how the DOA Saudi Peace Plan, became the Bush Road Map (WITH a deadline, no less) after a Few Ranch meetings and Tacit Saudi approval for the Iraq War?
__________________
"The world is a dangerous place to live, not because of the people who are evil, but because of the people who don't do anything about it." - Albert Einstein
hhmm....you are not racist??? thou doth protest too much.
let's see, you are judging people based on whether or not they are jewish or muslim....
...and you are willing to force the arabs out because they are not jewish....
...you are opposed to jews having relations with non-jews....
hhhmm....
hhhm....
1+1=2
and there you go! You are racist.
I am amazed at the tolerance of the moderators here...
You can sit there and promote killing and driving people out of a region and claim you are not racist?
Where has logic gone?
What next, will you put the arabs in concentration camps and gas them if they won't leave your land?
...oh yeah...you are not racist...by that same logic neither was hitler.
Sickening.
Unbiased
quote:
Originally posted by Israelite-Tribe
IT IS NOT RACIST ... WHEN WILL YOU COME TO YOUR SENSES??? WE JEWS ARE THE WORLD MINORITY AND WE DO HAVE A SMALL LAND AND YES WE ARE EVEN BEGINNING TO BE A MINORITY IN THAT LAND... IF WE ARE NOT THE MAJORITY IN THAT LAND THEN WE ARE OVER! DOOMED! DO YOU UNDERSTAND THIS?!?!!? I'm sorry for the caps it's just to show my mood... it angers me that you don't get it! ... I DON'T WANT TO HATE ARABS, I DON'T WANT TO BE RACIST, I DON'T WANT APARTHEID BUT WE CAN'T SAY... Arabs, please go out? pretty please? so we can survive as a Jewish people... SO we have to force them out somehow cause if we don't the Jews are over because in the diaspora there are interracial couples... I live in Canada and I'm 17 and I'm planning to go to Israel so I can live my life in the country where I was born and taken away from and because I do not want to marry any goia... There are plenty of beautiful and nice women who are not Jewish but I will regret this... I will take part in making our Jewish people stronger by quanitity and for that I will find a Jewish girlfriend... that's how committed I am...
Secondly , please get this in your head, we never achieved the 100% Judaism in Israel yet we have to achieve this and remain like this for at least 3 decades in order to be able to grow, then we can let some arabs in do you understand what I'm saying? They multiply like rabbits! Ah forget this! You don't even seem to want to understand you just want Judaism to fail don't you now?!
You don't get it ... I don't get it cause you don't get it ... it's survival... If the arabs want to be Jewish then fine they can stay but the point is the survival of Judaism... in the land of
ZION! OUR LAND! NOT THEIRS! NOT ANYONE ELSES AS GOD SAID!
quote:
Originally posted by unbiased
hhmm....you are not racist??? thou doth protest too much.
let's see, you are judging people based on whether or not they are jewish or muslim....
...and you are willing to force the arabs out because they are not jewish....
...you are opposed to jews having relations with non-jews....
hhhmm....
hhhm....
1+1=2
and there you go! You are racist.
I am amazed at the tolerance of the moderators here...
You can sit there and promote killing and driving people out of a region and claim you are not racist?
Where has logic gone?
What next, will you put the arabs in concentration camps and gas them if they won't leave your land?
...oh yeah...you are not racist...by that same logic neither was hitler.
Sickening.
Unbiased
Hi ibrodsky,
In my eyes, racism by Muslims does not justify racism by jews.
Both are wrong.
Israelite-tribe basically was talking about cleansing israel of arabs, in order to create a 100% pure israel, with only jews in it.
Are you going to tell me that such language and goals does not sound like Hitlers goals with his aryan race?
Please don't mistake my criticism of a jew's racism towards others as approval of a Muslims racism against others. I don't approve of it on either side.
All it does is lead to hate and war and murder and generations killing each other because their great-great-great-grandfathers had an arguement.
Racism is just plain ignorance and I will oppose it on whatever front it appears.
Unbiased
quote:
Originally posted by ibrodsky
The proposal is to transfer the Arabs, who conquered and have occupied Israel since the 7th century, to the Eastern part of Palestine. We have been brought to this extreme by 70+ years of mass murder attacks. Even so, transfer is far more humane than intentionally blowing people up.
The people who advocate killing others due to their ethnic group/religion are the Islamists.
One could make an equally strong argument that you are accusing the victims of "racism" while letting the real racists--the folks who demand a Jew-free West Bank-off the hook.
Hitler? The Mufti of Jerusalem was his close friend...
quote:
Originally posted by unbiased
In my eyes, racism by Muslims does not justify racism by jews.
Both are wrong.
quote:
Israelite-tribe basically was talking about cleansing israel of arabs, in order to create a 100% pure israel, with only jews in it.
__________________
If the Arabs put down their weapons, there would be no war.
If the Jews put down their weapons, there would be no Israel.
"Yet there will be heard the voice of joy, the voice of groom and bride in the cities of Judah and in the streets of Jerusalem" (Jeremiah "Od Yishamah", 6th century BC)
There is racisim and then there is ethno-nationalism. The two sometimes look similar, but are very different.
In most cases, the idea for the expulsion of Arabs out of Israel has little to do with the Arabs as Arabs (although the fact that the Arab world has sworn the destruction of Israel does creep in) and more to do with the fact that Israel is the one
and only Jewish State, and its first mission is NOT to be a democracy, but to be home to the Jewish people.
In order for it also to be more or less democratic, it must be super-majority Jewish. Higher birthrates among the arab populace, actively encouraged by their leadership, challenges this.
Put it this way. I like the idea of democracy. I LOVE the Jewish people. I am more determined that the Jewish people, and thus the Jewish State, survive, than that Israel be dewmocratic. But both would be nice. The high Arab population in Israel
is a real threat to both.
Re: The best peace plan I've heard yet. Seriously.
quote:
Originally posted by Adversary2Arabs
From http://arutzsheva.com/news.php3?id=42808
The Elon Peace Plan: Both Sides of the Jordan
Tourism Minister Benny Elon has proposed a new outline for peace in the Middle East, entitled: "In the Wake of the War in Iraq - A Historic Opportunity for a Regional Solution to the Israeli-Palestinian Conflict."
Sorry, this is simply not a "peace plan".
__________________
Since wars begin in the minds of men, it is in the minds of men that the defences of peace must be constructed
(Constitution of the UNESCO www.unesco.org/human_rights/hrpreamble.htm)
Re: Re: The best peace plan I've heard yet. Seriously.
quote:
Originally posted by yehudi
Sorry, this is simply not a "peace plan".
Re: Re: The best peace plan I've heard yet. Seriously.
quote:
Originally posted by yehudi
Sorry, this is simply not a "peace plan".
__________________
"The world is a dangerous place to live, not because of the people who are evil, but because of the people who don't do anything about it." - Albert Einstein
quote:
You are not the one living in Israel under the constant threat of Suicide Bombing. You obveously live comfortably in the UK. If the Irish population of Belfast were to start blowing up discoteques in London, killing 20-30 each time, I GUARENTEE you would support moving them accross the border to Republican Ireland.
__________________
I can't listen to that much Wagner. I start getting the urge to conquer Poland.
Woody Allen (1935 - )
Re: Re: Re: The best peace plan I've heard yet. Seriously.
quote:
Originally posted by Revkha
This peace plan works for me. I say bring in the buses.
When the Jews have the right of return to all lands from whence they were "expelled" or restitution for the property confiscated from the Jews then Israel can consider the right of return for the Palestinians. Until then, it is nothing more than a double standard but more specifically a hidden agenda for the destruction of Israel.
Re: Re: Re: Re: The best peace plan I've heard yet. Seriously.
quote:
Originally posted by ibrodsky
If we talk about expelling Arabs for being the most intolerant people--overwhelmingly supporting mass murder of the innocent--we are called "racist."
But when they demand all Jews out of the West Bank, this bit of ethnic cleansing is greeted as a reasonable demand.
When they show up at a "conference against racism" with hate literature, it's our fault for making them hate us.
When they fill their websites with "essays" by David Duke and various neoNazis, it's excusable because they are "oppressed."
__________________
"When there's a synagogue in Mecca, there can be a mosque in Jerusalem." - Jared Miller
"For Zion's sake will I not hold my peace, and for Jerusalem's sake I will not rest..." Isaiah 62:1
quote:
Originally posted by ibrodsky
The proposal is to transfer the Arabs, who conquered and have occupied Israel since the 7th century, to the Eastern part of Palestine. We have been brought to this extreme by 70+ years of mass murder attacks. Even so, transfer is far more humane than intentionally blowing people up.
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Hitler? The Mufti of Jerusalem was his close friend...
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"There are three principles in a man's being and life, the principle of thought, the principle of speech, and the principle of action. The origin of all conflict between me and my fellow-men is that I do not say what I mean and I
don't do what I say." - Martin Buber
Canaan/Eretz Yisrael/Judea/Palestine belongs to HaShem, his law (Halachah / Noachian), and who wishes to follow it.
Peace Plan for Oxy-morons!
Trying to put the words "peace" and "plan", together, between Islamic groups and non-Islamic groups, is akin to connecting "negative" and "growth." ANY "Peace+Plan" between Muslims and Jews,
is doomed to failure, just like a "Partial+Circumcision", because Islam disallows a permanent peace between Islamic and non-Islamic groups; it can only be either a temporary armistice, or temporary cease-fire, or some other oxymoron, but the
"struggle" for a total Islamic world and goes on forever.......
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I'm afraid of the world
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I'm afraid of Americans
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i doubt any religious jew would sign a document that he wishes never to control HaShem's land any time in the future.
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"There are three principles in a man's being and life, the principle of thought, the principle of speech, and the principle of action. The origin of all conflict between me and my fellow-men is that I do not say what I mean and I
don't do what I say." - Martin Buber
Canaan/Eretz Yisrael/Judea/Palestine belongs to HaShem, his law (Halachah / Noachian), and who wishes to follow it.
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Originally posted by rferry
THAT is a lie.
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you must understand the sociopolitical concerns of the day. to the extremist Mufti Husseini, Britain was the enemy for allowing more and more jews that he blamed for much of the instability of his land. the Irgun did not quite make a suitable partner in his plans to undermine British rule, so he made contacts with a rising power in Europe who was hostile to the British.
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This is an awful plan that has the support of about .00001% of the world's population. it's the same old idea that jews should be holy warriors in the name of HaShem. that may be true and that may happen one day, but first we need to increase our numbers (not just by importing Russians five generations away from a religious jew but by being fruitful) to conquer and sustain our hold to the territory. or we could develop friendly relations with non-idol worshippers (why is Israel granting citizenship to Southeast Asian Buddhists???) that will recognize Israel is HaShem's land.
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Originally posted by ibrodsky
What is a lie?
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The Mufti of Jerusalem was not seeking "stability." He went to Berlin to lobby Hitler to extend the Final Solution to Palestine. To suggest he was simply supporting Hitler against Britain is ludicrous.
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Thanks for telling us how to conquer territory and be good racists, but we are discussing how to defend innocent Jewish lives.
__________________
"There are three principles in a man's being and life, the principle of thought, the principle of speech, and the principle of action. The origin of all conflict between me and my fellow-men is that I do not say what I mean and I
don't do what I say." - Martin Buber
Canaan/Eretz Yisrael/Judea/Palestine belongs to HaShem, his law (Halachah / Noachian), and who wishes to follow it.
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Originally posted by rferry
that palestinians have no connections to the land past 15 centuries ago or as Joan Peters asserts no connection past 2 centuries ago.
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'stability' of the land to him probably meant different things at different times. increasingly it went from creating a muslim-dominated state to kill all the 'foreign' jews. i don't see that it's crazy to say that he thought he could handle the jews by himself once Germany took out another enemy of his, the Brits.
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it's not racist to suggest Israel use force to win their land from neighboring states. it's racist to suggest a arab-free West Bank or Eretz Israel. all transfer does is place the terrorists hiding in Palestinian land to them coming across another border to kill us, probably even increasing their recruitment and the support they get.
quote:
Originally posted by rferry
but first we need to increase our numbers (not just by importing Russians five generations away from a religious jew but by being fruitful) to conquer and sustain our hold to the territory.
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Originally posted by ibrodsky
Your comments regarding Russians and "Southeast Asians" are racist.
__________________
"There are three principles in a man's being and life, the principle of thought, the principle of speech, and the principle of action. The origin of all conflict between me and my fellow-men is that I do not say what I mean and I
don't do what I say." - Martin Buber
Canaan/Eretz Yisrael/Judea/Palestine belongs to HaShem, his law (Halachah / Noachian), and who wishes to follow it.
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Originally posted by Revkha
It seems that some of these Israeli Russians who had a Jewish relative some generations ago have now started white neo-nazi Israeli web sites. They are even selling Nazi books in the Russian bookstores in Israel. According to one of the Israeli newspapers, there is now anti-semitism in Israel. Who would have thought - anti-semitism in Israel. I say send these neo-nazis packing ASAP.
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"When there's a synagogue in Mecca, there can be a mosque in Jerusalem." - Jared Miller
"For Zion's sake will I not hold my peace, and for Jerusalem's sake I will not rest..." Isaiah 62:1
How did we go from talking about Elon's peace plan to the Mufti of Jerusalem during WWII?
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"When there's a synagogue in Mecca, there can be a mosque in Jerusalem." - Jared Miller
"For Zion's sake will I not hold my peace, and for Jerusalem's sake I will not rest..." Isaiah 62:1
quote:
Originally posted by rferry
why is Israel granting citizenship to Southeast Asian Buddhists???)
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"When there's a synagogue in Mecca, there can be a mosque in Jerusalem." - Jared Miller
"For Zion's sake will I not hold my peace, and for Jerusalem's sake I will not rest..." Isaiah 62:1
quote:
Originally posted by Adversary2Arabs
How did we go from talking about Elon's peace plan to the Mufti of Jerusalem during WWII?
At least, so said my old boss.
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History teaches us that men and nations behave wisely once they have exhausted all other alternatives.
Abba Eban
quote:
Originally posted by elke
It's called "free-association," and is a sign of intelligence
As for antisemitic Russian Israelis, - yes, this has been all over the Russian-language Israeli press for a while. However, there are estimated 300,000 non-Jewish Russians in Israel, large majority of whom are perfectly fine people and have contributed to Israel's well-being in major ways.
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"When there's a synagogue in Mecca, there can be a mosque in Jerusalem." - Jared Miller
"For Zion's sake will I not hold my peace, and for Jerusalem's sake I will not rest..." Isaiah 62:1
According to the Oracle of Bacon (Kevin Bacon, that is) at Virginia
The Oracle says: Ariel Sharon has a Bacon number of 4.
Ariel Sharon was in Gaza Ghetto (1984) with Yitzhak Rabin
Yitzhak Rabin was in Mitsva Yonatan (1977) with Sybil Danning
Sybil Danning was in Cat in the Cage (1978) with Colleen Camp
Colleen Camp was in Trapped (2002) with Kevin Bacon
http://www.cs.virginia.edu/oracle/
Okay...you guys keep going. I just wanted to see if there was a connection.
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It's called "free-association," and is a sign of intelligence At least, so said my old boss.
Re: According to the Oracle of Bacon (Kevin Bacon, that is) at Virginia
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Originally posted by Donna
The Oracle says: Ariel Sharon has a Bacon number of 4.
Ariel Sharon was in Gaza Ghetto (1984) with Yitzhak Rabin
Yitzhak Rabin was in Mitsva Yonatan (1977) with Sybil Danning
Sybil Danning was in Cat in the Cage (1978) with Colleen Camp
Colleen Camp was in Trapped (2002) with Kevin Bacon
http://www.cs.virginia.edu/oracle/
Okay...you guys keep going. I just wanted to see if there was a connection.
Re: Re: According to the Oracle of Bacon (Kevin Bacon, that is) at Virginia
quote:
Originally posted by Revkha
Yes, Kevin Bacon is the love child of Ariel Sharon
quote:
Originally posted by Adversary2Arabs
Are you talking about the Bnei Israel?
__________________
"There are three principles in a man's being and life, the principle of thought, the principle of speech, and the principle of action. The origin of all conflict between me and my fellow-men is that I do not say what I mean and I
don't do what I say." - Martin Buber
Canaan/Eretz Yisrael/Judea/Palestine belongs to HaShem, his law (Halachah / Noachian), and who wishes to follow it.
quote:
Originally posted by rferry
no, that would be south asian jews, not the southeast asian buddhists that i'm talking about, that are entering Israel to work. there's a number of shrines that cater to their religious practices.
Officially, Muslims consider Jews and Christians as brother of the book or whatever, and then go murder dozens BECAUSE they are Jewish and/or Christian.
Officially, the Catholic Church says it had nothing to do with the Holocaust. Pope Pious XII(#?) was one of the most vehemently anti-Semitic people of this past century as well as his winking at the Nazis.
Officially, Israel is a democracy but when Rabbi Meir Kahane used the universal freedom of free speech, he was banned from the government for his personal views.
Officially, Islam loves peace but everytime ou turn around there are Muslims killing Jews, Hindus or Christians.
Officially, President Bush supports peace but then is attempting to force it to committ suicide by giving up half of it's land. I don't see that pig giving back the Lousiana Purchase (not to mention the colonies) to the Native Americans - the true
owners. Everyone in the western hemisphere who is agaisnt these "settlements" is a worthless piece of s**t and just another hippocrate because every country in the western hemisphere (prior to European expansionism) was populated (not densly, but
nonetheless populated) by Native Americans.
Officially, the French love peace but they bought Saddam Hussein a nuclean site.
Officially, Islam is tolerant yet non-Muslims aren't even allowed INSIDE the city of Mecca because they don't want it contaminated by non-Muslims.
Officially, officially doesn't mean anything. It is what happens and whats it said that matters.
__________________
"When there's a synagogue in Mecca, there can be a mosque in Jerusalem." - Jared Miller
"For Zion's sake will I not hold my peace, and for Jerusalem's sake I will not rest..." Isaiah 62:1
quote:
Originally posted by ibrodsky
Interesting point. Officially, Muslims tolerate Jews and Christians because they see them as fellow monotheists. However, Islamists believe the proper role of Jews and Christians is to live under Muslim domination, since Mohammed believed he was the Messenger of Allah. He clashed with Jews because he was mad they didn't recognize him as such.
And Islamists despise those they consider pagans and atheists--just as you do.
__________________
"There are three principles in a man's being and life, the principle of thought, the principle of speech, and the principle of action. The origin of all conflict between me and my fellow-men is that I do not say what I mean and I
don't do what I say." - Martin Buber
Canaan/Eretz Yisrael/Judea/Palestine belongs to HaShem, his law (Halachah / Noachian), and who wishes to follow it.
I agree. Atheists and pagans could live freely anywhere but Israel. That's not a place in which that sort of thing should be allowed.
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"When there's a synagogue in Mecca, there can be a mosque in Jerusalem." - Jared Miller
"For Zion's sake will I not hold my peace, and for Jerusalem's sake I will not rest..." Isaiah 62:1
DOnt worry when their oil runs out that everyone will see and hear, from the govt, what muslims really are like, cold blooded savages. Its just a matter of time before the world turns on muslims, in
80yrs or so when most of the oil in sauid arabia and iraq and iran are gone, than the us will be able to say the TRUTH for once, and not protect these scum for their own politican purposes, ie.election time.
By the way ive i was steven spielberg, i would make a documentary about how the us can bomb anyone it likes, and israel cant, becuase of US appeasement of arab countries.
But i spose old steve aint a zionist, and he probably wouldnt get permission to make a documentary or move about the trut, in the us your only allowed to make a movie about the army or govt that shows them fighting in the name of democracy and
freedom, your not allowed to show the truth that the hipocratic state dept is really like.
quote:
Originally posted by Adversary2Arabs
I agree. Atheists and pagans could live freely anywhere but Israel. That's not a place in which that sort of thing should be allowed.
I disagree with rferry's and Adversary2Arabs views. Israel has NO problems with East-Asian workers unlike some ethnic groups specifically Arabs. Most of them are on temporary residence permits which
means they are not actually Israeli as such. If they are good citizens towards the state and Israelis... then whats your problem? Is there anything forbiding non-Jews specifically Polytheists from practicing their religion in Israel?
East-Asians who come to Israel for work help Israels Agriculture industry greatly, and Israels economy has a high dependance on agriculture. Forbidding them work here would mean that Israels economy will break (again...) and THEY would be sent
back to East-Asia unemployed. Is that what you want?
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Only two things are infinite, the universe and human stupidity, and I'm not sure about the former.
Albert Einstein
I don't think there is anything wrong with allow a limited number of non-Jewish immigrants in. BUT***, these Asians, etc. who are living in Israel are also taking jobs that Jewish Israelis should be
allowed to take with priority. Why are foreigners who have no reasons other than work to want to live in Israel get work when so many Israelis are unemployed? Why does Israel allow Palestinains in daily (who exploit this to kill Israelis) to work
when Israelis are unemployed?
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I don't think there should be a "observance police" or anything to that effect. I DO believe that public anti-religious people and public athiest (SHINUI) should be arrested for trying to inspire a revolution and overthrow the government based on
Jewish principals.
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"When there's a synagogue in Mecca, there can be a mosque in Jerusalem." - Jared Miller
"For Zion's sake will I not hold my peace, and for Jerusalem's sake I will not rest..." Isaiah 62:1
Where have you been?
quote:
Originally posted by richcrassus
But i spose old steve aint a zionist, and he probably wouldnt get permission to make a documentary or move about the trut, in the us your only allowed to make a movie about the army or govt that shows them fighting in the name of democracy and freedom, your not allowed to show the truth that the hipocratic state dept is really like. [/B]
quote:
Originally posted by Adversary2Arabs
I don't think there is anything wrong with allow a limited number of non-Jewish immigrants in. BUT***, these Asians, etc. who are living in Israel are also taking jobs that Jewish Israelis should be allowed to take with priority.
__________________
Only two things are infinite, the universe and human stupidity, and I'm not sure about the former.
Albert Einstein
Posted by Yam:
The problem is that alot of Israelis do not want these jobs. What Israel needs to do is try and help Russian Jewish immigrants get jobs in these areas.
Yes that's good. So Russian Jews are not Israelis. Interesting.
Alot of them come from a communist cultured background and can be of aid in Kibbutzim or other socialist communities.
This is the most idiotic thing I heard yet. So in your opinion the highly educated Russian Jews will go work in Kibbutz doing the dirty work, because apparently they love socialism and communism (which by the way has been extinct in CIS for the
past 13 years), where the "normal" Israelis can get all the good work. That's an an interesting thought given that the Israeli high-tech boom of the last decade directly corresponds to the engineering power of the Russian immigres.
But again - it's an interesting thought. I really would remember that one.
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Originally posted by Mil
Yes that's good. So Russian Jews are not Israelis. Interesting.
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This is the most idiotic thing I heard yet. So in your opinion the highly educated Russian Jews will go work in Kibbutz doing the dirty work, because apparently they love socialism and communism (which by the way has been extinct in CIS for the past 13 years), where the "normal" Israelis can get all the good work. That's an an interesting thought given that the Israeli high-tech boom of the last decade directly corresponds to the engineering power of the Russian immigres.
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which by the way has been extinct in CIS for the past 13 years
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Only two things are infinite, the universe and human stupidity, and I'm not sure about the former.
Albert Einstein
Posted by Yam:
Please provide me evidence that this is what I have said or implied? If not, shut up, and read on....
Given what you wrote I have made an educated assumption.
What I implied is that Russian Jewish immigrants would understand the cultural socialist society of a kibbutz much better then most other Israelis of non-Eastern european ethnic backgrounds and therefore would fit in easier then other ethnic
groups into the Kibbutz society.
You understand wrong. You would not find to many Russian Jews flocking to Kibbutzim.
I never meant it as an insult in any way or fashion.
I don't think you did either. It's just your understanding on the matter is a bit flawed.
I merely provided a solution that will aid in not only in providing employment for these immigrants,
Given that Kibbutzim are viable and in any way attractive economic entities - which they are not. Especially for an average Russian immigre.
but also will aid them in adapting to Israeli culture and society.
Most of the Russian immigres are not coming to Israel for a cultural experience but to escape the dirt-hole they lived in previously.
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Originally posted by Mil
Given that Kibbutzim are viable and in any way attractive economic entities - which they are not. Especially for an average Russian immigre.
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Most of the Russian immigres are not coming to Israel for a cultural experience but to escape the dirt-hole they lived in previously.
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Only two things are infinite, the universe and human stupidity, and I'm not sure about the former.
Albert Einstein